341: Nourish Your Brain: Understanding the Links Between Diet and Mental Health - Dr. Georgia Ede

ELLA: Welcome, you're on air with Ella where we share simple strategies and tips from people who are doing something better than we are. Whether it's wellness or relationships to just living better and with more energy or changing your mindset to accomplish more in your own life and succeeding however you define it. This is where we share the best of what we're learning from the experts and we're learning more every day. Live better, start now. Let's go. Hey, you're on air with Ella, and today I am joined by Dr. Georgia Ede. Hey, Georgia, how are you?Dr Ede: Hi, Ella, how are you doing? Thanks for having me.

ELLA: I'm excited to have you, and I'm excited to talk about the work that you've been doing for decades that has resulted in the book that you've just released in January, Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind. I want to talk to you about this and the connection between mental health and what we eat, Georgia. But before we do that, would you please tell us who you are and what you do?

Dr Ede: Sure, so I am a nutritional and metabolic psychiatrist, so these are relatively new subspecialties within the field of psychiatry that focus on the dietary and metabolic root causes of mental health conditions. So I train clinicians in these techniques, I see patients, I do research, and I write and I speak around the world about these interventions which are really helping people for the first time address root causes of mental health conditions.

ELLA: Can you give us an overview at 30,000 feet of what we need to know right now, before we delve into this conversation about mental health issues, anxiety, depression, and how our diet affects that. I'd love the broad strokes here.

Dr Ede: Yeah, so people need to know, people who are worried about their mental health, which is now just about all of us. I mean, if you yourself aren't struggling with a mental health condition of some kind, then someone very close to you is, right? So we're all touched by this. And what I want people to know is if you're worried about your mental health, that dietary changes can help you in ways no medicine can, often within days to weeks. But you have to know which dietary changes are the right ones to make, the ones that are most worth making. And the information that we've been given about that for so many decades is simply incorrect.

ELLA: Georgia, is it the same recipe, if you will, for everyone? Like, are you saying that there are certain foods categorically that might be disrupting our mental health or at least related to mental health degradation? Or does it vary person to person?

Dr Ede: There are some core principles that apply to all human beings, all human brains, and then there are quite a few principles that need to be personalized for around your dietary preferences, around your current metabolic health, around your current mental health and your goals. So there's a fundamental piece that everyone needs to address to be well, and then there are other pieces that can be customized.

ELLA: Georgia, in all honesty, one thing that I have tried to shy very far away from on this platform is saying some foods are bad and some foods are good. Now, I say that, I want to be really clear. There's a bunch of manufactured stuff that I don't consider food. I'm talking about food. I'm not talking about things that are manufactured within an inch of their lives and they're barely related to anything that ever came out of the ground or walked on this earth, right? So just to be clear. But I have a long history on this show of starting in early days, almost moralizing food choices, if I can be really honest with you. And I was a part of the problem. And I lived that out. to its fullest expression to the point where it broke for me. And so I went through my own journey, Georgia, where I stopped moralizing foods as good or bad and just started looking at them as neutral. And so I say that to tell you my honest bias at the top of this conversation. I struggle when we talk about things one should never eat. Again, I am talking about the food category, not the non-food manufactured products category. Georgia, talk to me, like, tell me, where would you even start with somebody like me?

Dr Ede: First of all, I wish everyone were like you. So, you know, we're really, we're really, I mean, in terms of the way we look at food, because, you know, food choices have nothing to do with morality, they have nothing to do with whether you're a good person, or a bad person, or a strong person or weak person. It's just food, right? And so, and it's the distinction you're making between factory foods, And foods that come from farms and fisheries and fields is extremely important. So the things that come out of factories are simply not food. And so one of the most important messages in the book is to remove those factory foods from your diet as much as you possibly can. Those are the foods that are literally destroying your brain from the inside out. And I explain exactly how that's happening. And we're talking specifically about really the signature ingredients of modern ultra processed foods diets. And these are a huge amount of refined carbohydrate, sugars and flours and cereals and large amounts of fruit juice, which would have been very difficult for us to consume a long time ago. And refined vegetable oil, seed oils that you need factories in order to produce bottles of. So the refined carbohydrates and the refined fats, the factory fats, those are very, very damaging. And these are really the core ingredients of almost every processed food on the market. So if all you do is take those ingredients out of your diet and eat whole foods, real whole foods of fish, of peach and egg, those kinds of foods, you will be healthier than 95% of the people on the planet. And so this is my core message. Now, there's a lot more we could go into in terms of which whole foods are better and worse choices, depending on your goals and your current metabolic health. But that is step two. Step one is get the junk out.

ELLA: You are probably shocking no one. What you're saying makes perfect sense, right? And we have talked ad nauseum almost about the danger of these things, these frankenfoods, if you will. But Georgia, I need you to help us connect the dots because we have never talked about how it really impacts mental health issues like anxiety and depression. So talk to me about that in a little bit more depth. What is the connection? Why is this impacting our mental state?

Dr Ede: So we know a lot more than we did even 10, 15 years ago about the root drivers, the drivers of poor mental health. And why is our mental health deteriorating at such a rapid pace? We have, here in the United States, one in, almost one in four adults are living with a mental health disorder of some kind. And that just means a mental health condition that is so serious, it's interfering with their ability to function. And then among young adults ages 18 to 25, it's one in three. So we are moving in the wrong direction. And there are many reasons for this, but one of the most important and the reason that you have the most control over is the food that you're eating every day. So The root causes, we used to think, oh, these are chemical imbalances. These are problems with neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. And we've been taught to address those mysterious chemical imbalances with medications. And we've been doing that for 75 years. And it really hasn't helped enough. Medications do help some people, but they honestly fail most people. They don't help enough, or they make things worse, or they don't work at all. And they caused a lot of side effects. So we need new approaches. What we understand now is it's less about chemical imbalances and more about, okay, what is causing those chemical imbalances in the first place? And what are the other problems that are going wrong in the brain? So in addition to these sometimes chemical imbalances are sometimes part of the problem, but it's also something called inflammation of the brain, which you can't see or feel. It's also something called oxidative stress, which is why we're told we need to eat foods rich in antioxidants, is to fight that oxidative stress. And the third piece is something called insulin resistance or pre-diabetes. Some of your listeners may be more familiar with the term pre-diabetes, which is just that your glucose and insulin levels are not staying in a healthy range. Your glucose and insulin levels are unstable or you're getting exaggerated peaks in your glucose and insulin levels throughout the day. Those are three of the most important drivers of poor mental health and poor physical health, as it turns out. And diet has a tremendous impact on all three of those root causes of mental health problems.

ELLA: I want to dig into a couple of those. Talk to me about the link between insulin resistance and mental health. How does that connection even work?

Dr Ede: Yeah, so insulin resistance or prediabetes, more than 50% of Americans now have this very serious metabolic problem. And it's almost entirely rooted in lifestyle. So what it is, is that your glucose and insulin levels are running too high. This is primarily driven by diets that are too high in the wrong types of two carbohydrates. The people are eating too many of the wrong carbohydrates too often. And so what you're getting instead of natural healthy, you know, fluctuations in your glucose level that you might get from say, you know, eating fruits and vegetables, which naturally contain carbohydrate, those are whole foods and those take longer to break down in the system and they contain fiber and they contain water and they contain nutrients. That's one thing. It's another thing to be eating refined carbohydrates sugar, flour, cereals, fruit juices, and these are essentially naked carbohydrates. Refined carbohydrates are naked carbohydrates that turn instantly into glucose in the bloodstream and give you an exaggerated peak in your blood sugar level, and then right on its tail, an exaggerated insulin spike to cope with that tsunami of glucose that you've just subjected yourself to. And that sets you off to the race for the next four to six hours. Not just your glucose and insulin levels are unstable, but now you've destabilized many other hormones as well that come along for the ride. And these include stress hormones and appetite hormones and reproductive hormones and blood pressure regulating hormones. So it destabilizes your chemistry, your neurotransmitters in your brain and your hormones and the rest of your body from within. So no matter how calm and good things are looking on the outside of your life, you could be feeling very unstable and fragile on the inside.

ELLA: I am so curious about that destabilization. What you're saying feels intuitively correct, but I don't understand how it works. And none of, we want like the USA Today version, not the Journal of American Medical Association version, but Georgia. Will you tell me about the destabilization process in our brains that you're talking about?

Dr Ede: Yes, let's say that a person has a pretty typical breakfast, maybe a bagel, maybe some fruit yogurt, maybe a smoothie that's made with fruit juice. Those refined carbohydrates will turn instantly into glucose in the bloodstream. You'll get this glucose spike, you'll get this insulin spike. How does that affect the brain? So the glucose spike will translate into a glucose spike in the brain as well. So the higher the blood sugar, the higher the brain sugar, right? So every time your glucose is going up too high, You're also going to have a dangerous level of glucose in the brain as well. The brain cannot tolerate much glucose. It needs some glucose at all times. This is the simple sugar that's in your bloodstream that is a source of energy. There's nothing wrong with glucose. Glucose is a good thing, but you can have too much of a good thing. So when you get this exaggerated spike of glucose in the brain, that sets off a wave of inflammation and oxidative stress inside the brain. And one of the ways this happens is that extra glucose, which the brain has no need for, literally sticks, sticks to proteins, sticks to DNA, sticks to fats in the brain and cells and all these other important components of your brain, and cripples them into these dysfunctional, sticky molecules, kind of caramelizes them into these clumps called Advanced Glycation End Products, or AGEs for short. And AGEs is a good name for them because we know that throughout the brain and body, these AGEs are a big driver of premature aging, aging of the brain, these AGEs. So your brain will age more quickly the more of these you accumulate. The brain doesn't take this lying down. It sees these sticky clumps and it says, okay, these are going to get in the way. These are going to gum up the works. Let's clear them away. So the brain has an immune system and the brain cells release on purpose to deal with this emergency. They release inflammatory cytokines, and oxygen-free radicals. And all these are our SOS signs. They're saying, we've got a problem here, let's call for backup. And so that the ambulances can come to the scene and clean up the situation, remove these AGEs, clear them away. So that's deliberate inflammation, deliberate oxidative stress. The oxidative stress piece is these, what are called oxygen-free radicals that get released. They're like little bulls in a China shop that will randomly damage everything they encounter. You need this emergency signal at first to get the body's attention, but then you're supposed to have a healing phase that restores peace to the village, you know, after you've cleared away these clumps. But if you're eating this way, which unfortunately most people are, sometimes without realizing it, three, four, five, six times a day, your brain is going to be under constant attack from within, dealing with these emergencies. and you'll never get to this healing phase. You'll be in a state of chronic inflammation and oxidative stress, and that's very damaging for the brain.

ELLA: You know, I can't help but think of how many children are living this way. And we have listeners all over the world. Georgia, we're not limited to the United States, but I can say that this was a profoundly Western issue, at least in many parts of North America and in the UK. I think Europe's got a better handle on it. We are feeding our children this way.

Dr Ede: These are the foods we think of as children's food. You know, fruit roll-ups and juice boxes and cereals and granola bars and sweetened yogurts. We think of these things as children's foods. These are setting children on a path to poor metabolic health and poor mental health at a very young age. And these types of carbohydrates can be very addictive in some people. It can be really hard to stop eating these, especially if you've learned to do this at a very young age. When well-intentioned adults, you're encouraging these types of snacks for kids as a treat or to help them calm down or to reward them for good behavior. And so these addictive ultra-processed carbohydrates can really teach the brain at a very young age to cement those pathways in place. Any pathway that you're using frequently in the brain and it's reinforced by well-intentioned adults is going to be cemented in place when it comes time for the brain to go through its pruning process. And the pruning process, which continues until our mid-20s, is when the brain is deciding, which paths are you using frequently? We're gonna keep those. Which pathways are you not using? We're gonna destroy those. And then we're gonna set that brain in place for the rest of your life. And that's why you often hear that saying, you know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. A lot of our behaviors really get, they really get cemented early in life. Children need the same foods that everybody else needs. They need healthy whole foods. They need protein, they need fat, they need minerals, vitamins, they need all of their essential nutrients, and carbohydrates should be in the form of whole foods. Fruits and vegetables are the best sources for children.

ELLA: Georgia, I think this is so important because when we look at children, we think, well, they can tolerate this better. If I eat that box of whatnot, it's going to instantly show up on me and my child will just burn through it because they're so young and they're just an incinerator for this type of food. I don't want to belabor the point, but what I think is really critical about your work is that you're saying, To the naked eye, that may be perceived as true, but we are not looking at the internal consequences. And I think that we've probably got some sense for the physical consequences over time, but a lot of us have overlooked the mental health consequences over time.

Dr Ede: Yeah, and you know, what you're saying is absolutely true. And when kids are eating those refined carbohydrates, this is what's happening, even if they're not gaining an ounce. What's happening is they're getting those exaggerated spikes in glucose and insulin levels just like everybody else is. It's just that they're able to manage it better for a while until they're not anymore. It can take 20 years to develop prediabetes and type 2 diabetes. But what's happening in the background is those children, first of all, they're getting the glucose and insulin spike and they're getting that hormonal roller coaster. There's a study I put in the book where they gave healthy teenage boys a sugar-sweetened cola, and they compared that to a sugar-free cola. And what they saw, they measured their adrenaline levels. That's a stress hormone level in the body. They measured their adrenaline levels. And what happened to those adrenaline levels? Four to five hours later, they saw a huge spike in adrenaline. four to five times its previous level within four to five hours with the sugar sweetened cola. Teenage, healthy teenage boys.

ELLA: Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?

Dr Ede: What could possibly go wrong? And they had symptoms, you know, a lot of these kids had symptoms, you know, panicky symptoms, sweating, shaking, hangry, irritable, you know, and they eat a lot more later on in the day because they're hungrier, their appetite hormones are destabilized. So they feel bad, and they and they eat more. So this is these are not healthy, even for kids that look healthy on the outside.

ELLA: Well, let's talk about some of the things that we can do. And you touched on antioxidants, and I'm assuming that antioxidants are the antidote to oxidative stress. Let me know if I've got that relationship correct.

Dr Ede: You do.

ELLA: Are they? That just sounds like one of the things that we hear on the internet now, and they're like, you need more antioxidants. And it's definitely red wine.

Dr Ede: Okay, so yes, you're absolutely correct that the definition of an antioxidant is that it fights oxidative stress. Oxygen radicals, they're called. They're called free radicals, and they're bumping into everything like little bulls in a china shop and damaging your cells from within, right? So that's oxidative stress. We want to, of course, not have too much of that. So antioxidants to the rescue. Now, we're told that it's the colorful fruits and vegetables that are loaded with these antioxidants and that we need to eat those foods in order to fight oxidative stress. There's these sort of superfood superheroes, right? You know, things like blueberries and red wine and dark chocolate and things like that, right? The problem is those antioxidants work well in plants. That's why plants have them, to protect them, for example, from the radiation from the sun, those types of sources of oxidative stress. They don't work well in human beings. We absorb them to a very small extent. Most of them we don't absorb at all. And the little bit that we do sometimes absorb, we rapidly eliminate from the body as fast as we possibly can. The good news is we have our own internal antioxidants. Our cells make our own antioxidants because Mother Nature knows that oxidative stress happens. Mother Nature knows this. So no matter what you're eating, if you're eating even the healthiest whole foods diet on the planet, whatever that might be, The process of breaking food down into fuel molecules and turning it into energy, there's a certain amount of oxidative stress that naturally happens whenever you eat anything. It's just part of how nature works. So we can't avoid oxidative stress. When we eat, we get some naturally. And that's why Mother Nature has given all of your cells their own antioxidants to mop up those free radicals. But if you overwhelm your system, with too many of the wrong foods, our own antioxidants won't be able to, they won't be able to keep up and those free radicals will spill over and terrorize the neighborhood. So that's, we want to use our own antioxidants and not overwhelm them.

ELLA: Okay, so we talk about, we should talk about oxidative stress the same way we refer to inflammation. Like you don't want a body without inflammation, and you will not have a body without oxidative stress. But you're saying it's ratios, there are tipping points here. And when you have chronic states of over anything, that's when we get into tricky territory. So if we're making our own antioxidants, and we shouldn't just be out here freebasing coffee and blueberries, then Georgia, how do we support our body's ability to mop itself up with antioxidants? Or can we?

Dr Ede: Absolutely, we can. And it really is primarily the most important thing is not overwhelming our own internal antioxidants by not flooding your system with sugar, flour, cereals, fruit juices, and vegetable oils. That's where all the oxidative stress, the excess, as you pointed out very wisely, it's not, I mean, a little bit of oxidative stress is normal and natural. We need a certain amount of oxidative stress. But if you overwhelm your system with those factory ingredients, right, you're gonna overwhelm that system and the system won't be able to keep up. So first, do no harm. Take the ingredients out of your diet that are causing the excessive oxidative stress and inflammation in the first place. That's a message you don't hear. You hear more antioxidants, more antioxidants. You don't hear less pro-oxidants.

ELLA: That's because you can't sell fewer pro-oxidants and you can sell antioxidants all day long.

Dr Ede: Exactly. Nobody gets rich telling you what not to eat and I am living proof of that. You have it within your power. to boost your own internal antioxidant defenses. It's not the power of addition. It's not, Oh, let me add this special superfood or supplement to my diet. It's, and this is a tougher message for us as human beings. And I know this, I'm a psychiatrist, right? Taking things away, the power of subtraction is really, that's where you have the power.

ELLA: I hear what you are saying. You are saying eliminate the bad guy and don't try to flood it with the purchased antioxidants, if you will. But I think of it differently, and I hope this is of value. I think of it as, instead of what am I trying not to do and what am I trying to take out of my diet, one of the shifts that worked for me is to look at all of the things I'm trying to fill my plate with in a day. So what am I trying to fill my day with? I'm trying to fill my day with eight to ten servings of vegetables. I'm trying to have, you know, maybe three fruits a day. I'm trying really hard to make sure that I have over a hundred grams of protein. So when I shifted my focus to what I needed to consume to nourish my body. It felt so much better than what do I need to eliminate. Now, we are talking about the same thing. I just thought the reframe might be a little bit useful for some people who were as neurotic as I was.

Dr Ede: Well, what you're saying is really gold, right? It's true that it matters a lot what you don't eat, and that's where a lot of the power comes from, but you also have to eat the right things. You also have to make sure that the foods you're eating are nourishing, protecting, and energizing your brain properly. And so you need to know what those foods are. But for the most part, they are whole foods. And so, like you said, you must prioritize protein. You must prioritize protein. This is not controversial. And so we need to have a certain amount of protein. The recommendations vary. I love your 100 grams. I think that's a lovely target for a lot of people. Some people may even need more than that. Certain men or bodybuilders or certain pregnant women. So lots of people may need a little bit more than that, but I love where you're going with that. And high quality proteins. So whether they're plants or animal foods, whether they're plant or animal protein sources, you need to make sure you're getting all of your amino acids. That's what we're trying to get when we eat protein is the amino acids. Those are the building blocks of the neurotransmitters in the brain, for example, right? So that's how you make dopamine, that's how you make serotonin, is you make them out of amino acids which are the building blocks of protein. So whether it's plants or animals make sure you're getting all of the essential amino acids.

ELLA: You hear you know in the zeitgeist there are really rich in antioxidants foods and there are blood sugar friendly foods and these are all this this nomenclature is now making its way onto packaging. Well one of the things that I see is brain foods and I want to know is there such thing as brain foods and if so what would fall into that category in your opinion?

Dr Ede: Foods need to do three things. They need to nourish the brain by providing all essential nutrients. So you need to know where those nutrients are and explain which foods are best at nourishing your brain. Food needs to protect your brain against damaging ingredients. It can't contain things like sugar and flour and vegetable oils and things like that. And it needs to energize the brain safely in a way that protects your brain metabolism for the rest of your life. And that means keeping your glucose and insulin levels in a healthy range. There is, unfortunately, no such thing as a brain superfood. I mean, there are some articles where you see, oh, maybe, for example, salmon or eggs, and I'm a huge fan of those types of animal foods for nourishing the brain, but they don't have superpowers. They're just doing what food is supposed to do. They contain the nutrients that you need, but they're not going to give you extra protection against the damaging foods in an ultra-processed foods diet.

ELLA: Georgia, if somebody starts to shift away from some of these more detrimental foods, I would call them inputs, and moves more toward healthy whole foods, how quickly can somebody see improvements in their mental health, in their anxiety, in their potential depression?

Dr Ede: within days to weeks. I mean, there are some people who within three, if you kick yourself off of that glucose and insulin roller coaster, which most of us are on all day long and well into the night, you can feel better in as little as three days. But more commonly, three weeks, on average, three weeks. On the very outside, I see with particular dietary strategies, three months on the outside. But I usually say, you know, three days, three weeks, three months at the at the most.

ELLA: Wow. Okay. Your new book is called Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind. I learned a lot. And again, we have never made the connection on this platform between how we nourish our bodies and our mental health expressions. So I am really grateful to you for bringing that to us today. And I hope those who are interested will jump into Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind. Where do you like to be found, Georgia?

Dr Ede: My website's the easiest place to find more information about all of these topics, including the book itself, and that's called DiagnosisDiet.com.

ELLA: DiagnosisDiet.com. We always put the links in the show notes and make it super easy for everyone. We will do so again today. Dr. Georgia Ede, thank you so much.

Dr Ede: Thank you very much, Elle. I really enjoyed it.

ELLA: Okay, I hope you enjoyed today's show and got something out of it that you can use. If you did and you want to learn more, just head over to onairella.com where I put up links to all of the stuff that you did not need to write down today because I got you covered. There's no with, it's just onairella.com. Thanks for listening, thanks for sharing the show, and thanks for inspiring me. You are quite simply awesome.